Community Engagement

Andrew: The land code is entirely decided upon by the membership of Saulteau FN. It is not drafted by Canada or the province, or the lands advisory board.  The safeguards are really up to you. Within a land code, many FN members choose to set out their expectations of their own C&C. The safeguard or rules or requirements, can be spelled out within a land code. As the name implies it is a Land Code so instinctively you think about safeguards which are about lands, environment, natural resources, but another feature about land codes is they include conflict interest’s rules and financial accountability. So for example, the revenues that may be earned by future land development, Land codes can set out the community members expectations in terms of accountability & management of those finances. Conflict of interest rules can be specified in the Land code. It is helpful to think of it as the rules and expectations that you have as a community. You can look at land codes that other FN community in Canada has developed that are particular safe guards that may be of interest here.

• For us we always have our future goals that we want to do for our community. We are always thinking ahead of how we can get to those goals, then Land coad was presented to us. In 2019, we took a trip to Westbank and met with Chief Robert Louie. He shared a lot of insightful information on what Land code meant and what it would mean for our nation & its benefits. We took that meeting back to our members & suggested the idea of Land Code. People were hesitant but told us to do our due diligence and sure this is best for our community & the right fit for our nation & ensure it will benefit us & our future generations.   After that, we hit the ground running & knew it was something we wanted.  We wanted to be in control of the land management and everything that comes with that. …the wildlife management, the revenue, the funding that now comes directly to us. We always put our Treaty & and Treaty Rights at the forefront & make sure that those are always protected.  A lot of information sharing, like we are doing here today is very important & having everyone’s voice heard & opinions to ensure membership get the proper information on what it really means.  It was the right fit for us
• Shona:  I would say that one of the big goals that Doig had was they always wanted to have an urban reserve in Fort St John. Land code is an important tool to facilitate investment on FN lands because the Nation has the control of the development processes.  One of the big gaps for FN’s that struggle with poverty is actually waiting for Indian Affairs is to make a decision. It detracts investors onto your Lands as so when the nations has control of that process they can move as quickly as they want, because of the Land Code they have worked with their members, their members have worked on the laws on what is important to your community.   That was a big piece for Doig and us getting our Land code & Urban Reserve around the same time.  A key piece that Andrew had mentioned was around your financial administration, one thing that Doig did with the financial system certification was develop a financial administration law which is connected with our land code so they go together.  That is super important for transparency, accountability, management of your own funds.  The money you make for example in your own gravel pit goes into trust under Indian Act, under land code that money goes back to you.  It was ours and shouldn’t have been there to begin with, it should have been collecting interest in our bank account.  The economic development and asserting their own jurisdiction on their own land, came back to FSJ which was always there’s.

• We need to take our time and getting to know the land code and getting to know how it may or may not impact our Treaty, on our nation to nation sovereignty positions that we take here at Saulteau.  I think it is important as we do the land code process to study our own treaty so that we know what the treaty means to us.  What does it mean when we have the knowledge of our creation stories and how those laws came to be and how those laws were handed to us threw stories leading up to how we got our pipes and sweat lodges, all of those things are a part of our treaty and what it truly means, when the old timers talked about the true meaning of Treaty itself.  As a nation we need to go down that path and bring back that knowledge back so we can make decisions like the land code.  I believe we need something like the land code, but I believe in being careful also and making sure we don’t jeopardize that Treaty or the relationship that we have with the land through that treaty.  The treaty is of peace, co-existence.
• As we go along, we have to study our treaty so we can begin to understand what the treaty means to us. We have to create the treaty as if we have 1 voice and 1 mind. We have never taken the time to understand our treaty. As we move forward we can do a parallel process, look at the land code, what can the land code do for us, what can we put in place, but at the same time we should be studying our treaty, where we can address at the same time,  so we won’t be trampling on our treaty with the land code or wont overlap with each other. We have to study with the Fed and provincial government so we can make solid informed decisions.

• In New Brunswick, the FN’s took on a bit of a different angle in asserting their rights relative to what other FN’s have done.  Other Fn’s in canads who have pursued aboriginal title in Canada or treaty rights have tended to say that we are not challenging the fee simple titles that have been granted by the crown to individual’s, we are looking for a declaration of our title on the remaining crown land or the land that the crown asserts is theirs.  Wolastoqey was interesting  because the FN’s in New Brunswick were dealing with land that had been issued in fee simple to non FN’s & when the NB FN’s advanced their claim to treaty rights & title, some industrial interests challenged and wanted those  actions struck against them because they held a fee simple tile.  The decision, was a  court judge said, no we are going to let this move forward and not strike out the claim to the extent that it was challenging. It preserved those arguments & defeated what those thought was the law.
• There is a very important statement, this does not affect the aboriginal rights or treaty rights for FN. Saulteau FN, if you choose to opt into a land code, Doig River FN who has chosen to opt into land code, from my perspective I would suggest that you can pursue every right that you claim as treaty rights, aboriginal rights or aboriginal title. The Land code will not have affected that in a negative manner.  Theres FN’s like Wolastoqey, & many others across the country that are fighting the federal and provincial governments for respect and recognition of what they view to be aboriginal title and treaty rights, I don’t see a land code affecting that at all.

• Yes, we did a lot of community engagement over a 2 year process. (doig). Our elders made sure we were going to do this right, so it does take a bit of time but it’s the best way to do it so you are doing it right the first time. A lot of our engagement we did a lot of events like this one. We split up our demographics, we did a women’s elder meeting…men’s elders meeting…youth meeting and middle age.  We found that better to do the meetings this way because we got better diverse engagements, more intimate groups that they are more familiar with and comfortable to ask questions, sharing ideas and thoughts.  We did a lot of mail outs. It was helpful because they were asking a lot of questions. They could really grasp what this is about & what it meant for our nation. 
• A couple of things that we did was had a land code committee. A lot of elders spoke Beaver & translation in meetings, video and online engagements.  We had had game nights, played bingo with the Elders…we did have fun with it and had a lot of laughs & we were there to answer those tough questions, just like we are here today.  It’s super important to know that it will not impact your treaty rights & in many ways you can really implement your treaty rights in a great way when you strategize that with your council & your lands departments.  The process only goes as fast as the community wants it to, it is not something you have to have rammed down your throat, it is community driven, that’s what the whole land code is, its your laws, your indigenous laws, how you want to make your decisions, so it has to go as fast as your community is ready for it.
• Our land code committee was champions when spreading messages to our community, attending monthly meetings, spreading to elders to the youth and ensuring our community was informed.  Share what was discussed, constant communication with the membership was very beneficial and super important.

We could have spent more time getting rapped up on this with our staff. It is complex if you haven’t worked in that space before.  You guys have a proficient team here and using LABRC to bring in their experts.

No, we didn’t really hear from them, but got a letter of congratulations. That is about all.

Comment from Terri: Do I trust that our community would be ready? I don’t think they are right now.  People don’t sit around and talk to each other about their thoughts. What they are afraid of. I’m worried, my trust is not there right now. 4EG business, big money, and it has not been resolved to the satisfaction of the people, our Land is even bigger issue. Is it going to be fair? I don’t see any transparency. Prove to me that we can work this out, that’s all.

A: Andrew:  so I will try answering that question.  You are right that it is a fame work agreement between FN’s and Canada. Personally, I don’t tend to see any definition or clauses there that are problematic but I would offer you this thought.  A lot of FN’s are asserting their treaty rights and asserting aboriginal title and aboriginal rights as land code FN’s. It’s your land code and if there are particular positions, to pick up on what is said here, that are important to state in your land code, put them in the land code. If you put them in the Land Code, issues that you believe about the correct interpretation and application of Treaty 8 and your position with respect to sovereignty over lands, that’s your land code… that’s your statement.

A: Andrew: I would agree with that, the framework agreement, the land code has to be consistent with the framework agreement, all I’m suggesting is there is a lot of room to say what Saulteau believes in a land code without contradicting the framework.

A: Andrew: I would agree with that, the framework agreement, the land code has to be consistent with the framework agreement, all I’m suggesting is there is a lot of room to say what Saulteau believes in a land code without contradicting the framework.

A: Andrew: My comment would be, if there’s a judge out there that wants to deny Treaty Rights or aboriginal title or say whatever they are going to say, they are going to say it. Second point, If you say what you believe firmly in your land code, you are making a statement to the public, to your members and to the courts. Because the framework agreement says its ‘without prejudice’ to your treaty rights and that’s what you got to say to the judge as well.

Henriette: Comment:  I am speaking for my elder here Sandy Cameron. His concern is, for elders to fully understand what is going on with the land code, that we should have an elders’ group that comes together and have a panel like you guys to come there and tell us everything about the land code, & also have an interpreter, someone like Stewart who can tell all the elders what the process is going to be, how its going to be done, how its going to affect our treaty.  Because its all trust, all the elders want is to be able to trust what’s going on and that this process isn’t going to be bad for our children in the future.

• A: Shona: Yes, we have monthly meetings called “Dun-e-che- you” which literally translates ‘Old people talk’, but we meet with them and they meet with the land code committee and they still meet with us on those topics, so its super important and with the language whatever traditional language that your elders have, you have to have someone because most of our people are on the lands and you want to know how it impacts them on a day to day basis.  There were elders on the land code committee but now we have a lands governance committee and have elders there as well.
• A: Henriette: would you be willing to bring your elders here and sit down with our Saulteau elders. Yes, I think that would be good, were trying to build some trust & were trying to believe, well were hoping that we could have our elders and the people within our community to believe in our committee here for the land code & me being part of the committee, I want to ensure that what were doing is right & I wanna know that they can trust me that down the road, I’m going to have two new great grandchildren born this year, I already have one, and I sure don’t want to wreck anything for them in the future. I want to continue that they have their treaty rights & that what I do today on this committee is I’m doing the right thing, but I sure don’t want to be stuck being under the Indian act either, I want that we have control over our lands and what we do within our community, prosper to do things better for them and I don’t want to be held back. I’m leary, and I know the elders are going to be, and I hear what Terry’s talking about, that she’s leary to, & we need to have more meetings and I suppose as a committee we still need to do that, is to start having more meetings & gaining the trust of our people that what we are doing is going to be right & I pray to god that we do. Thank you

Doig: It was good, our elders will always come speak, I’m sure we can get them on the bus or carpool over and have those conversations with your elders and I think Terry’s point of trust is so important and we had those questions and comments too at Doig.  Late Billy Attachie asked me too, can we do this, and I said we’ve been working for this, we’ve been putting in all the programs and the systems, the financial administration law to do that, so you have to work with your administration and have confidence in them and your processes, and that’s a huge point trust and confidence in your nation and in your governance, and your people to do that, so good comment, super important.

Comment: Norman Napoleon.  My concern, as Stewart said, the old people were governed by spiritual laws, they were spiritual laws that we lived by, that the creator and this land gave us, and today we don’t live those in our community, we live far from those spiritual laws that we had, a lot of people probably don’t understand them today, what they truly mean.  We’ve got to go slow, If we are going to govern back to the Treaty and what it really meant, we have to understand those laws, so that it can be part of the land code, that those laws aren’t governed by modern and this colonized concept that it comes back to our spiritual laws that this creator and land gave us and that’s got to be our driver moving forward, that we go back and remember who we are and remember the way our people lived and that they were governed by land laws that governed us, not colonized system we have today, so It has to go slow, so we as a community have to start understanding those and learning those things too.  Sad to see our community today, cause its not what we grew up doing, cause we’ve gotten away from those concepts & gotten away from those spiritual laws that were given to us. Thank you.

Brittany: We had the same big concerns, our elders asked about treaty rights, and that information sharing, repetitive information sharing was very helpful so that they finally understood that it wasn’t going to impact our treaty rights and the constant meetings and community engagement did really help with building the trust, they learned more.  We had guest visitors come to our community as well who had passed the land code before, so they shared their stories, it was helpful because they wanted to hear too what it was to our nation, what does it mean for our treaty rights, is this going to impact us, are we doing the right thing.  So really hearing from other nations that were successful in it and how it is really benefited them really rang positive for our elders and it was helpful, just that constant communication & reiteration with information sharing was what we had to do. 

Shona:  Going back to what Norman had said about Traditional laws, that’s what we are working on now, indigenizing our documents with Doig values and Doig laws, and how they resolve situations.  That has been good reflective work for our community members, on how they used to solve problems in the past, what were the community protocols and bringing those back into the practical application of your land laws. We are building our first laws (dog laws) and also emergency management laws, how do you deal with those situations, so it creates a lot of great conversation with our members of what they did in the past. It has been a good learning for myself, but also for our young people that didn’t have that experience, with the elders sharing those stories, so thought that was a really good point Norman, but that you do have that opportunity to Indigenize it and to bring your Saulteau values into your new laws.

A: Andrew: something I have see with land code FN that I think is extremely important is, the community and leadership have made a decision and what degree they want economic development and where they want it and conversely where they don’t. Which is very extremely important, once there is a clear trajectory that these are areas where we want to pursue economic development, the whole Framework Agreement was developed by FN’s who were fed up by the failures of the Indian Act destroying their economic opportunities, and unlike the Indian act, that this allows them to move at the speed of business, but only move at the speed of business on the lands that you want to have business on.  Moving at the speed of business is really the FN can decide, exactly how fast they are going to make decisions on particular issues, so if business developers approach the community and the FN says inside our offices we will decide on a certain type of lease, set whatever speed you want to deal with the types of businesses you want to deal with.  If the businesses that approach you are satisfied with the timing you arrange, or if they don’t like your timeframe, you might want to talk to them or you might not want to do business.  But the critical issue is that the Indian act does not set any deadlines or obligations on timelines from the department. The entire Addition to Reserve (ATR) process for example has no timelines for decision making and is entirely in the hands of Canada on your lands and nothing on their side is moved at the speed of business and it’s a complete failure on ec dev that has let down FNs across the country everywhere.  I have seen LC FN where they wanted to pursue economic development they can seize upon it, and I’ll go one step further.  Theres more and more lc nations right now that are over a competitive advantage over their municipal neighbors because they can move faster, which is a really striking thing which is getting noticed by a number of financiers and business developers which could be a really revolutionary thing. 

Shona:  Going back to what Norman had said about Traditional laws, that’s what we are working on now, indigenizing our documents with Doig values and Doig laws, and how they resolve situations.  That has been good reflective work for our community members, on how they used to solve problems in the past, what were the community protocols and bringing those back into the practical application of your land laws. We are building our first laws (dog laws) and also emergency management laws, how do you deal with those situations, so it creates a lot of great conversation with our members of what they did in the past. It has been a good learning for myself, but also for our young people that didn’t have that experience, with the elders sharing those stories, so thought that was a really good point Norman, but that you do have that opportunity to Indigenize it and to bring your Saulteau values into your new laws.

• Shona: We have urban reserve parcels in FSJ, they are not under city or federal jurisdiction, they are under Doig jurisdiction.  We have our industrial lots and we have been building up our inducstial land use plan that our community will be voting on and indigenizing the laws and the language within that document and whats even cooler is our own company are on those industrial lands. That’s one thing we are very proud of, that we can have our own companies there and our Urban reserve, our Natche Commons, our tax free gas station by the casino.  We can be more efficient than the city of FSJ rather than taking years to get things done, so On the economic front, having that land code and supporting the processes to be effective and efficient is so important, because the longer the delays the higher the costs and no developer wants to go in with high costs, so when you are dealing with Indian Affairs to get the permit, it could take years and the developer would just go away. With all the forest fires, before land code we had to apply with Indian Affairs to apply for all our fire smarting, well you cant wait for them to approve a permit to cut trees so yo can make sure your homes and your people are protected, you need to be able to move quickly and efficiently within your community.  When it comes to emergency and safety, it is great benefit to have our own land code.
• Brittany: An area we wanted to clean up with fire smart, was held up with permits, Now that we have our own land code, it would have been much more seamless if we had land code prior to, which was very frustrating to wait for someone else to give us the approval to move forward to help our community be safe, but now its much better
• Comment: Art Napoleon… We have to be inclusive, we have to be participatory, we have to be community based, I know that the committee has done a lot of work and I know the committee has reached out, they are doing all kinds of work but it comes to informed consent, you have to show the other side of the issues that people are afraid of, the onus is on the committee to prove to the community that they do not need to be afraid and if that fears still exists, there is still a ways left to go with the consultation process. Maybe the answer is not panels and this formality.  When I was a kid, the elders were still planning land use, they would meet, they would get together, they’d eat, have tea.  Kitchen table talks, following old protocols and laws.  Anything that goes forward, there has to be an honest attempt, not indigenizing things, that’s like adding it on after the fact.  Our legal traditions have to be the foundation as does the value of our culture.  Thank you.

• Shona: We have urban reserve parcels in FSJ, they are not under city or federal jurisdiction, they are under Doig jurisdiction.  We have our industrial lots and we have been building up our inducstial land use plan that our community will be voting on and indigenizing the laws and the language within that document and whats even cooler is our own company are on those industrial lands. That’s one thing we are very proud of, that we can have our own companies there and our Urban reserve, our Natche Commons, our tax free gas station by the casino.  We can be more efficient than the city of FSJ rather than taking years to get things done, so On the economic front, having that land code and supporting the processes to be effective and efficient is so important, because the longer the delays the higher the costs and no developer wants to go in with high costs, so when you are dealing with Indian Affairs to get the permit, it could take years and the developer would just go away. With all the forest fires, before land code we had to apply with Indian Affairs to apply for all our fire smarting, well you cant wait for them to approve a permit to cut trees so yo can make sure your homes and your people are protected, you need to be able to move quickly and efficiently within your community.  When it comes to emergency and safety, it is great benefit to have our own land code.
• Brittany: An area we wanted to clean up with fire smart, was held up with permits, Now that we have our own land code, it would have been much more seamless if we had land code prior to, which was very frustrating to wait for someone else to give us the approval to move forward to help our community be safe, but now its much better
• Comment: Art Napoleon… We have to be inclusive, we have to be participatory, we have to be community based, I know that the committee has done a lot of work and I know the committee has reached out, they are doing all kinds of work but it comes to informed consent, you have to show the other side of the issues that people are afraid of, the onus is on the committee to prove to the community that they do not need to be afraid and if that fears still exists, there is still a ways left to go with the consultation process. Maybe the answer is not panels and this formality.  When I was a kid, the elders were still planning land use, they would meet, they would get together, they’d eat, have tea.  Kitchen table talks, following old protocols and laws.  Anything that goes forward, there has to be an honest attempt, not indigenizing things, that’s like adding it on after the fact.  Our legal traditions have to be the foundation as does the value of our culture.  Thank you.

• Andrew:  I’ll offer a few thoughts.  There is one challenge for communities’ that have adopted the land code. That is, a huge amount of effort has gone in, within the community to decide on the land code and to build the support for that.  When you first adopt a land code the other governments tend to forget that & that some communities continue to fight with BC Hydro, the provincial and fed govt for people to respect the land code and the change.
• Another reason would be there isn’t an efficient consensus as to how the land issues should be governed and how to make sure there is fairness for everyone.  If that hasn’t happened then I would suggest more time is needed to figure out what is needed in a land code, it is better to take that time and have the tough conversation and really try to figure out the right way of doing things than rushing to get out of the Indian act, only to find out that you are going to have disagreements within the community.
• Another is that it’s up to you, even if you do build a strong community consensus and a fieriness in what you see in the land code, there is probably going to be some disagreements in the future between C&C and individual member or member and land office.  Some first nations have put in dispute resolutions that don’t work.
• There is going to be disputes, which is true in any community anywhere, and consider that element very carefully.
• Another example, would suggest maybe land code isn’t the way to go is if, if there isn’t that consensus generally as to how much your community is interested in ec dev, cultural preservation, protection and preservation and very different uses, if there is huge disagreement over the future of your own community the land code isn’t going to be the magical solution to that, you gotta figure out what the consensus about the future and have the land code respond to it.